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Dov Baron on Why Fitting In Is Killing Innovation, Loyalty, and Belonging at Work

Most leaders today are trying to solve disengagement with perks, strategy, and systems, while ignoring the one thing human beings most starve for: belonging. On today’s episode of The Champion Forum Podcast, I interviewed Dov Baron, author of The Art of Belonging. Dov argues that fitting in is actually destroying innovation, loyalty, and, perhaps most of all, human potential. He believes most organizations unknowingly create cultures where people amputate parts of themselves just to survive professionally. He says we're not thinking machines that feel, we're feeling machines that actually think. And until leaders understand the hidden emotional code driving them and the people they lead, they're gonna keep creating cultures that look successful on the outside while silently draining people of their humanity on the inside. 


About Dov Baron 

Dov Baron is a speaker, facilitator, best-selling author, and the host of the Dov Baron Show, which has been ranked the number one podcast for Fortune 500 executives by Apple Podcasts. Dov has been named a Top 30 Global Leadership Guru five times and an Inc. Magazine Top Leadership Speaker twice. For more than 30 years, Dov has helped leaders and organizations create cultures of belonging because, as he says, fitting in is not the same as belonging. Born into poverty in Northern England and surrounded by violence, addiction, and chaos, Dov became obsessed with the search for meaning and human connection.


That journey eventually led him to study human behavior, leadership, emotional intelligence, and the factors that create fierce loyalty within organizations and relationships. His new book, The Art of Belonging: How Conformity Silences Genius and How to Unleash It, is one of the most thought-provoking leadership books that I have read in some time.


The following responses are based on Dov Baron’s interview with Jeff Hancher. Some wording has been modified to improve readability.


What made you decide to challenge readers to stop building a culture where people have to fit in?

We all read Good to Great. It was a fantastic book by Jim Collins, based on getting the right people on the right bus in the right seats. And when I read that, it made so much sense. And then COVID happened. And when COVID hit, we were all removed from the company culture and forced to work from home.


And then COVID was over, and people didn't want to go back. We were all asking," What's going on here?” Despite spending significant money on engagement during COVID, engagement remained low, and it only got lower with all the billions spent. What I realized was that COVID had destroyed many things. But COVID made us think we could get community at home, but it’s not true. We have become isolated. We're not necessarily lonely, but we are isolated. If you work from home, how much time do you actually spend with people? You might not be lonely, but you are isolated.


What we've begun to realize, and what all the research I did for this book showed me, is that we–as a corporate entity, as organizations–have a responsibility to build community in our work environment. Fitting in means they have to put on the blue shirt and khaki pants, go to work, and do what they're supposed to do, but also deny parts of themselves. You have to create a community where they can be themselves, actually want to interact with others, and go to work.


Why are so many organizations unintentionally creating this conformity instead of connection?

Let's just be clear about what this means, because if I have to conform, you're asking me to disenfranchise parts of myself. You're asking me to eliminate parts of myself. A lot of people are operating on an old idea. Leaders did not have to create a social environment a hundred years ago, but it is precisely what will move the needle now. Human beings have evolved, and we know better what we want, and you have to facilitate that. If you want to be profitable, if you want to make your company work, you have got to step into that. You've got to recognize that there's a different demand now. 


How do you foster connection at work?

One of the things I do when I go into a company is say, give me your five top people in any part of the business. I sit down with them, and I say, where are you just knocking out of the park? And of course, these are the top people, so they're knocking it out of the park in sales or whatever it might be. I go, that's fantastic. What do you wish you could do on top of that? And they go, well, I'm good at that. And I go, no, what do you love to do aside from work? What do you really enjoy? Oh, I love gardening, knitting, or baking. And I go, what if you could do that at work?


And they go, what do you mean? I go, what if there was an afternoon once a month where you could teach other people who are interested in that how to do that thing. Would you? And they say: I'd love that. Watch how much better they become, and watch how much better everybody there who comes into their classes becomes if you let them do what they love to do outside of work. Now, what if you did that across the organization? What you've got now is a community people want to be part of. They love each other. They love the environment, and they don't feel like they have to disenfranchise something. And now they're working for a company that facilitates that in them. So I now have fierce loyalty for this organization because they really make room for me as a whole.



What actually happens to creativity and innovation that companies need when people feel like they can't fully be themselves at work?


Every company needs innovation. So what do you do? You look for new people, and you hire them. And what’s the question that every hiring manager asks? Tell me an example of a time when you thought outside of the box, Jeff. And you go, oh, well, blah, blah, blah. And then we have the final five interviews, and then the team gets together, and we go, well, Jeff's answer was, you know, he thought out of the box like this, and that's exactly what we need. But when you actually hire them, you say, and by the way, whatever you do, don't think outside the box. In fact, if you do, we'll punish you. 


I know that’s what happens because I’ve sat in these rooms and then watched it. And it's like, you hired the person to think outside of the box, but you want them to think inside your box. That's not innovation. I tell leaders that innovation is destructive. Do you understand that innovation is destructive? When you have innovation inside of your company, it's got to destroy something in your company. So you've got to be willing to give it up. What most leaders are saying when they say that they want innovation is that they want a tweak, something, a new shiny little bow we can put on their thing to say that it's different. That's not innovation. That's not innovation at all. And if you want to bring people in who are going to innovate, you've got to give them a couple of hammers.


Why is self-awareness non-negotiable in leadership so that we can move forward?


The mirror principle is that you don't live in the world, you live in the mirror. Everything you see is a reflection of some part of your own psyche.  Self-awareness is not enough. You can look in the mirror and go, oh my God, I'm 40 pounds overweight and still eat donuts. Self-awareness is not enough. Self-awareness is step one, but if you do not have self-awareness plus action, you ain't going anywhere. All you are is a really well-informed idiot. Your ah-ha moments don't matter. What matters is your effort moments. When you say, I can't bear this anymore and you’re actually going to do something different. 


How do leaders stop reacting to emotional programming?

We are emotional beings who think. We like to tell ourselves lies about what we feel and call it rationalizing. We are emotional beings first, so we have an emotional source code.


The Five Levels of the Emotional Source Code™

The Code Itself: Emotional Roots — early emotional wiring; how your nervous system learned to respond to love, stress, loss, closeness, or rejection.

The Anatomy of Meaning: The Stories You Attach To — the interpretations you build on top of those reflexes, such as “people always leave” or “I have to do everything alone.”

Identity: The Mask You Used to Survive — the “I am” persona you adopt to cope, such as “I’m the achiever,” “I’m the strong one,” or “I’m the caretaker.”

Beliefs & Values: The Protective Worldview — beliefs that justify emotional distance, such as “trust no one,” “work first,” or “feelings are weakness.”

Behavior: The Visible Fruit — the outward patterns others see, such as overworking, one-word replies, saying “I’m fine,” fixing instead of listening, or performing closeness rather than being emotionally available.


So, we try to change ourselves by changing our behavior, and we're upside down. Behaviors don't change unless you look at beliefs and values. Beliefs and values don't change unless you look at identity. And identity doesn't change unless you look at why you're still trying to survive like you're seven. This is the work that I do with these very high-powered individuals who want to understand.


The Death of Nuance and Culture

One of the great losses of our time, because of social media, is nuance and context.  We read headlines. We don't read articles. I write two long-form articles a week: every Tuesday on LinkedIn and every Thursday on my own blog. I do it because it's important, but I also know that most people are skimming. It's true, and it's so sad. There's a completely different context that allows us to evaluate things very differently. And that's what we're supposed to do in our work situations. This person lost their crap with another person. Okay, what's the context? What's the nuance? What's the nuance of the situation? Now we're so politically correct that we don't even notice nuance.



How do we examine who we have told ourselves that we are?

We are not what we tell ourselves we are. What's the lie? What's the lie you tell to hold onto that identity? Enlightenment is a painful process. Everybody wants to be the phoenix, but nobody wants to face the fire. For the phoenix to rise out of the ashes, things have to burn. And so what are you willing to let burn? I'm not saying you have to let all of it burn, but you have to let the lies burn. And that means you'll have to confront parts of yourself that you've never confronted. But as a result, you will be a better human, and you'll also be a better partner with your relational partner and business partners. You'll be a better human in every possible way, and you'll have access to things in yourself that you've been so denied that have been partitioned away from you that bring you such joy. 



What is the first step a leader can take to start creating a culture of belonging instead of a culture of fitting in?

I think you have to start with the basic question, which is to write down all your strongest characteristics, just make a list of them. Then ask yourself what the opposite of those characteristics are and when they show up. Those are the parts of yourself that are disenfranchised. Everyone has two sides: one on the surface and one below the surface. You might not be a murderer, but you may have murdered people’s ideas or reputations. You might not be dishonest, but you’ve lied about when someone looked good or stretched the truth to flatter someone for a promotion. This creates empathy, and it helps you get curious and ask questions. If you're going to build a culture of belonging, you have to make room for people who don't agree with you. That means you're making room for innovation. You're making room for creativity, and that is only possible if you're willing to stay curious. 


Application Activities:

  1. Where are people on my team changing, hiding, or shrinking parts of themselves just to succeed here?” That question can reveal where the culture rewards conformity more than contribution. Instead of expecting people to adapt to a single narrow version of professionalism, leaders can create space for diverse personalities, perspectives, communication styles, and strengths. When people do not feel they must amputate parts of themselves to be accepted, they are more likely to bring energy, honesty, and creativity to their work.

  2. Make room for real innovation by being willing to let something old be challenged or destroyed. Many organizations say they want people to think outside the box, but then punish them when their ideas disrupt existing systems, habits, or power structures. Leaders can apply this principle by asking, “If this idea is truly innovative, what would it require us to stop doing, change, or release?” That question forces leaders to move beyond surface-level tweaks and become honest about whether they really want innovation or just a safer version of the status quo.



Connect with Dov Baron

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